Opening of the Warsaw dance scene in the Vistula River Pavilion – Julia Hoczyk talks to Joanna Leśnierowska

The dance community has been striving for this for 90 years.The first calls for such a place were heard as early as 1933. Many people feel that there is more to it than just the local context. Would you agree with this statement and, if so, why do you think that the capital of a Central European country that has been a member of the European Union for almost 20 years deserves an independent dance centre?

I have a bit of a problem with the word ‘deserves’ because it implies that you have to prove something in order to receive an award, which in this case is the establishment of the first place in Warsaw dedicated to the art of dance. And although formally it will be something like that, because, as we know, we will first have a pilot year at the Vistula River Pavilion, and only then will a new city institution be created. However, we all want to believe that it will be created, because the need for it is undeniable and has already been confirmed many times by the perseverance and artistic achievements of the community…

Perhaps it would be more appropriate to think of this phenomenon as a riddle: how is it possible that the capital of a Central European country with a population of almost 40 million does not yet have a venue dedicated to one of the most dynamically developing performing arts? Art that is attracting ever larger audiences globally and is remarkably effective in telling us about the reality around us. It is a field that combines elements of theatre, music or the visual arts, reflecting the complexity of our multi-sensory, multi-channel experience of the world. We live in a reality in which we are assaulted by an enormous number of stimuli on a daily basis. Dance, when practised and watched, restores our awareness of our own bodies, which is extremely important in these digitally driven times marked by the pandemic and breakdown of interpersonal relationships.

I strongly believe that choreography has the power to change the world, or at least to give us the tools to change this world and our existence in it. It activates the perception of reality through the experience of the body and movement, it suggests scenarios for being together and, above all, it restores our sense of our own bodies; it allows us to rebuild a relationship with the body, to feel safe and comfortable in it. It also teaches us how to listen to it so that we do not succumb to external manipulation. It is about the ability to resist the chaos that invades us every day – the flood of impulses, aggressive media images, all sorts of ideologies that try to appropriate our bodies, that claim ownership of them. These and many other agendas are what dance and choreography deal with on a daily basis through their creative processes, sharing their reflections and results with audiences both on stage and in dance studios. This makes choreography strategically one of the most important arts in the context of the condition and development of contemporary societies. From this point of view, it is indeed surprising that in Warsaw there is still no single, widely known place for dance that everyone knows about.

When I explain this to my colleagues and collaborators from abroad, they find it hard to believe. And because dance hasn’t had a permanent address in Warsaw for years, t audiences don’t really know where to go to experience dance. It seems to me that it is high time, to rekindle the belief that our bodies are not a threat to each other and have the power to change the world. There should be a place in Warsaw, a dance house, where all of us – artists and Varsovians alike – can feel safe, where we can dance and experiment together to develop our common consciousness and sensitivity as a collective. This is extremely important and vital for our common future.

And also for the future of Warsaw’s extremely interesting, diverse and rich dance community, which until now has moved from place to place, some more, some less known and visible. Some choreographers have managed to get their foot in the door of larger institutions and theatres. Others are permanently based in small community centres where they do wonderful work, not only creating performances but also working with large numbers of children, young people and adults who want to learn dance. It seems extremely important to me to create a place for artists, where they feel at home, where they feel seen and needed, and where they can share their knowledge and skills with the city and people of Warsaw. For the first time, they will also be able to invite their colleagues, artists from Poland and from all over the world, on a regular basis, so that Varsovians can enjoy the exciting dance phenomena that are emerging in the field of contemporary choreography, regularly.

So instead of focusing on why there hasn’t been such a place for so long, you think we should focus more on the potential and what dance and choreography can tell us today; how it can respond to the needs of the contemporary world. What you’ve just said seems to me to be crucial and quite illuminating for thinking about this place. The ideal would probably be to construct a building from the ground up. It would be a dream come true for the whole dance and choreography community. But we know that’s not going to happen in the next few years, and in a way, we have to make do with what we get.

And that is the Vistula River Pavilion. It is currently being used until spring 2024 by the Museum of Modern Art, which, by the way — and this is worth mentioning — has from time to time held both educational dance projects and performative-choreographic events to accompany exhibitions, i.e. the museum’s core programme. All of this has taken place in a pavilion designed for the visual arts by the Austrian architect Adolf Krischanitz, which was moved here from Berlin as a 1:1 replica.

The pavilion is now being redesigned for dance and choreography by architect Maciej Siuda in collaboration with other professionals. This will be done not only for the dance community in Warsaw, but also for visitors and artists from outside Warsaw. Meeting such a wide range of needs and expectations is extremely difficult when you are adapting an existing design rather than creating one from scratch. What do you see as the biggest challenges in trying to fulfil this huge vision, while accepting that not everything can be achieved in this place?

Again, I would like to point out that to speak of ‘coming to terms with something’ implies a kind of capitulation ; sadness and resignation. I prefer to see the current situation as a stimulating challenge. In my opinion, Warsaw’s environment is at a historic point of opportunity for real change – after so many years of efforts and dreams, a physical space for dance in Warsaw is finally on the horizon! However, it is important to see the Pavilion primarily as the first step in building a dream institution. While planning the launch of the activities that will take place there, it is also necessary to discuss what a long-term strategy for supporting choreography in the capital could look like. The biggest pitfall in this context would be to see the Pavilion as the final destination for the Warsaw dance milieu, where it would have to (or want to) operate for the rest of its days. I hope that the institution, which will be established in 2026, will continue to delight both artists and Varsovians for years to come, and that it will finally find the ideal place for its various needs and activities.

I would also like to point out that in most European cities (and often elsewhere) dance functions in adapted spaces – mostly from post-industrial sites (e.g. mines, breweries or old tram depots). For seventeen years I personally ran a centre for choreographic development as part of Grażyna Kulczyk’s Art Stations Foundation in Poznań, in the renovated 19th century Huggers brewery building (known as the Old Brewery). Our workspace, Studio Maltownia +3, was a space that did not initially meet usability standards for the performing arts (it was very low, had a sloping roof and none of the necessary installations). However, a lot can be done in such seemingly impossible spaces, thanks to careful consideration of what is possible and the collaboration of many people and dedicated experts.

It seems that the Vistula Pavilion is an extremely interesting place and, as a white box, a place of many possibilities in its own way. Not only is it in a great location, but above all it is a large, open space that we can shape together. Personally, I am happy that it used to be a home for the visual arts and often for performances, because I firmly believe that this context is conducive to the development of contemporary choreography. The development of choreography in the twentieth century shows the many points of contact and mutual inspiration between dance, contemporary choreography, performance and the visual arts. Thanks to the performative turn, choreography has been filling museums and art galleries for almost two decades. However, it is very important that dance is not reduced to the category of ‘collaborations and side events’ and that choreography finally establishes its autonomy. Therefore, the creation of a space for dance is crucial.

The challenge, of course, will be to adapt this building to the needs of the dance arts. First and foremost, such a place has to provide the conditions for intensive work with the body. I am referring, of course, to practical issues such as the ability to regulate the temperature or have a proper ventilation system, but also to the more mundane question of the number of dressing rooms, rooms where both artists and workshop participants can change and get ready. An extremely important issue is the floor we dance on, which is of great importance to our bodies, spines, knees and other joints. Ensuring that the floor is suitable (at the moment the pavilion has a concrete floor which offers no shock absorption) will therefore be essential. If the pavilion is to be a venue for performances as well as extensive educational activities, it will obviously need to be a multi-purpose space. Dance performances have their own specific requirements. Interestingly, those that do not use an elaborate set usually pay special attention to lighting. Its role is sometimes to illuminate the body in motion in an empty space, and sometimes to illuminate the space itself. It is not unusual for the light to become another dancer in the performance. The space of the pavilion is designed for exhibitions, so it lacks the technical infrastructure typical of performance activities. This is the main task (and challenge) for the architect.

It is not possible to adapt the Vistula Pavilion to the needs of dance without carefully listening to the needs of the community, which is already happening, as Maciej Siuda is taking part in meetings organised in connection with the new facility. He accompanies us on our excursions, both to the Pavilion and, for example, to the Nowy Theatre, which is one of the models for adapting a space to the needs of the arts that we could consider (the theatre building used to have completely different functions). I greatly appreciate Maciek’s involvement in the process of discussing and clarifying the functions the pavilion will serve. It is well known that building from scratch and adapting an existing building are two completely different things. But who knows better than the choreographic community how to adapt to conditions that are not always perfect. Dance artists, with all their flexibility and willingness to annex multiple spaces, seem to be the ideal community to creatively transform the Pavilion.

I also hope that it will not only be a space of movement, but also a space in movement. When I visited the Museum of Modern Art (MSN) and its exhibitions, it didn’t occur to me as clearly as it does now that there is a car thoroughfare underneath the building, so there is actually a non-stop flow of traffic… and in that sense you could say that it is a building based on movement. This has inspired me enormously, because it seems to me that the Pavilion has the chance to become a place that implements the latest ways of thinking about open spaces, about flexible spaces whose function is not clearly defined and whose potential multiplies with the imagination of both the architects and the artists who will use the space.

You said that most of the spaces for dance and choreography outside of Poland have actually been created in places that have been adapted rather than in buildings that have been created from scratch. Do you have a place that you find most interesting or inspiring in the context of Warsaw?

It is difficult to find the perfect example. First of all, most dance centres in Europe and the world are created in spaces that are many times larger than what we will have. I am thinking, for example, of the PACT Zollverein choreographic centre in Essen, which was built in a former mine and has two or three stages, rehearsal spaces and many rooms that can serve all the functions you want. Or the Tanzhaus NRW in Düsseldorf, which was built in an old tram depot and now has two stages and six dance studios, some of which can be adapted for small performances or performances with a custom-organised audience. There are also venues such as the Mercat des les Flors in Barcelona, a dance centre housed in the historic building of a former flower market. There are offices and stages there, but rehearsals and residencies take place in another part of the city – in the building of the former light bulb factory.

It seems to me that the most interesting example for Warsaw’s future plans is the ADC Pavilion in Geneva. This is the stage that will open in 2021, for which the local community and the public have also had to wait many years, and which owes its creation to the efforts of L’Association pour la Danse Contemporaine (ADC). The difference is that the City of Geneva finally held an architectural competition and built this space from scratch. It is an extraordinarily beautiful example of architecture inspired by choreography and designed to literally move (it was agreed that it would remain in its first location – in the city centre – for eight years). It has become an integral part of Geneva. The Pavilion only has a large open space and offices, as well as the archives of the Geneva dance scene, which are accessible to everyone. But its other activities (residencies, both creative and educational) take place elsewhere, in studios used by the organisation on a shared basis, with the support of the City of Geneva. This could be the model best suited to the situation we now have in Warsaw.

We could imagine the Vistula River Pavilion as a place where dance is performed and watched (as far as the space allows), while all the other activities that cannot be accommodated in this single place, either in terms of space or time, are carried out in collaboration with spaces that are already interested in the art of dance and have presented it (albeit irregularly) in Warsaw, and that have an infrastructure suitable for studio work. It is easy to imagine premieres taking place in the Pavilion and rehearsals for performances taking place in other collaborating venues. Such a solution sets the whole of Warsaw in motion in a very interesting way and gives many entities a chance to unite around the idea that Warsaw can breathe dance and ‘recharge its batteries’ in many different parts of the city.

You’ve talked a lot about the metaphor of the house. The dance house has become a kind of model for how art works. But how do you get people to want to come to such a place, to feel comfortable in it? I think on the one hand it can work in a natural way, in the sense that we can stop for a while and join the event that’s going on, but we might also want to come in and just relax for a while. So, we have a pavilion, with the space outside and whatever that entails, and the space inside, that can fulfil both of those needs.

The Geneva Pavilion and other dance venues often have another feature in common: a purposeful arrangement of space and decoration that makes you want to be inside! It seems to me that this will also be one of the challenges – how to make the Vistula Pavilion a place where we all want to spend time. A place where our bodies feel comfortable and safe, where our emotions and senses are satisfied. It would be ideal if the public could see a performance in the pavilion when they spend their free time in the neighbourhood and on the banks of the Vistula. And in the summer-spring and early autumn season, it will certainly be a great opportunity to get out of the building and promote dance to audiences who may not yet be interested in it. There is no better art to enliven public spaces. All the outdoor activities that choreography has always woven into the fabric of the city are an ideal way to promote the Dance Centre, to engage public. It’s a great way to attract the attention of those who don’t yet know that dance is a fantastic way to interact with art and spend time.

In a way, you answered my question when I was thinking about the context in which the pavilion would operate, namely the very busy Vistula boulevards, which are buzzing with life almost 24 hours a day. And there is the Copernicus Science Centre, which is visited by whole families from Warsaw and all over Poland, and of course the Vistula, which is actually a district in its own right, where many events take place during the season. The pavilion is right next to it, and it is immersed in the river. Then there is the Powiśle power station, a revitalised site that, like the boulevards, has been restored to its former glory. On the one hand, there are so many of them that they compete for attention. On the other hand, it is the surroundings and the environment in which we operate that will influence the pilot project and the subsequent new institution. So it would be important to think about how to take advantage of all that. You mentioned the outdoors and outdoor activities, so it seems to me that rather than just seeing that as a challenge, we need to reverse that vector and think about how we can take advantage of this site and its surroundings, as well as the wider local context.

Choreography in Poland, not only in Warsaw, has for years suffered from a lack of resources, space and the necessary infrastructure. Yet it continues to develop. This way of thinking and doing is written in its DNA. Artists are constantly interacting with different spaces and organisations, creating an ever-present and growing presence for dance in our country. But the energy cost of such practices is enormous. It would be so much better to channel this creative energy into a dedicated space! But we definitely cannot think of it in isolation from everything that is already happening around the pavilion. It seems to me that it is more useful and interesting to ask what we can contribute to the existing offer of the Vistula Boulevards. How will we distinguish ourselves as a choreographic community and how will we fill this significant gap in Warsaw’s cultural landscape?

Although the dance house formula you mentioned earlier has a fairly precise framework, it is not the only model for how this art form functions. Could you tell us more about it based on your experience with the EDN network? I find it inspiring (not only) in the Warsaw context.

In 2008, as the only curator from Central and Eastern Europe, I had the pleasure and privilege of participating in the project work that led to the creation of the European Dancehouse Network (EDN). Today it is one of the largest networks in Europe, funded by the European Union, bringing together many dance organisations in Europe (now more and more from our part of the continent). Often the spaces and activities available in the Balkans, Czechia, even in Italy or Portugal are not on the same scale as those in the Netherlands, Germany or Spain, for example. One of the basic premises of the network has always been to lobby for the dance house formula in places where it does not yet exist, and to include in our activities those organisations which, for various reasons, are unable to realise the full potential of this concept. This year, after almost fifteen years of existence, the network has changed its name to the European Dance Development Network (EDN). This is a very significant change as it recognises that the dance house model is no longer the only formula it promotes. The focus has shifted from a formal organisation to the mission of the institution, which is first and foremost to promote the development of the art of dance, including audience development activities.

It is no longer so much a metaphor of the house that dominates, but rather the vision of networked venues and organisations (from across the city?) as a kind of organism, to use a physical metaphor, in which the building that houses the stage is typically both the heart and the brain – the essential operational centre of the enterprise. So, excitedly and in a less serious vein, I would like to say once again: there is no need to despair today that the Pavilion is too small for us, because our stage and our home can be the entire city of Warsaw. This is very exciting and I am grateful for the opportunity to think about this project together! I am happy that the experience of many years of work in Poznań and my international activities can today support the idea of a new institution, and that Warsaw has welcomed me so wonderfully as an adopted member of its community and that I can participate in this process.

We are also very grateful to you, because your presence has contributed to the fact that we now want to support this vision together, which does not necessarily have to be limited to the dance house model, as you said so beautifully yourself. I think that would put a lot of pressure on it, and it does not have to be like that at all, and I thank you very much for pointing out another way. Finally, I want to talk about something you mentioned earlier, which is that the whole city could function as a stage for dance. How can cultural institutions network and support each other? You talked about a centre in Geneva that works with other institutions and makes spaces available on a very open, cooperative basis. I wanted to ask you how we can conceive a new urban institution in Warsaw focused on dance, which would be a fully networked institution, and which would show that it is not a threat to others, but that it (we) want to create this cultural environment together and act collectively?

It seems very important to me how we think about this place and how we are going to communicate it. I think it’s going to be important to show that it’s not going to be a place that’s closed and only accessible to a select few, but one that doesn’t threaten anyone, on the contrary, one that invites support and will support collaboration on different projects right from the start, because collaboration and a shift towards horizontal ways of working together is also inscribed in the choreographic DNA. We talk a lot about collectiveness, about non-violent collaboration, about listening to our own needs and taking care of each other. It seems to me that this will be a challenge for us, but also a great opportunity to start practising what we preach and to put ourselves to the test.

It’s important to remember that all of us together — whether it’s the environment, the city council or other municipal institutions that might join us and work with us — we are all learning because we are doing this for the first time. We are modelling or prototyping a future institution, and that is a challenge, but also a great privilege and an opportunity to come up with the best solution we can, while supporting each other. We will support both those who win the competition for the pilot programme and those who will be the first to run this new urban institution. These will certainly be complex undertakings, but they are also challenges that all municipal, provincial or national institutions face. This is because the organisational and legal operating system is very different from what we are used to (as most of us have NGO backgrounds and are grant and funding based). We have a very intensive learning period ahead of us and, if only for that reason, we will certainly need the support of other institutions and more experienced colleagues as a community. And we will also need to be given the benefit of the doubt, because we will learn quickly, but we are also likely to stumble more than once along the way, which can also serve as choreographic inspiration for us. It is important to be able to trust that when we fall, we can land in a safety net provided by our partners. I am thinking in particular of the Museum of Modern Art, which, despite the challenges of opening its new premises, has agreed to accompany us on this exciting but difficult journey for the pilot year. I appreciate this immensely, knowing that it will surely help the dance community spread its wings, gain valuable learning time and ultimately better understand the challenges facing the institution we will run independently from 2026. I cannot wait to dance together at the opening of the Warsaw dance scene in the Vistula River Pavilion!

I think this is a brilliant way to end our conversation. Thank you very much.