CONVERSATION: On friendship and Warsaw. Interview with Oksana Kolisnyk

What are the interests of young refugees in Warsaw? How can we reach them? These are some of the questions that we at the Warsaw Observatory of Culture have been asking for some time, and then Oksana Kolisnyk, a student of Social Arts at the Institute of Polish Culture at the University of Warsaw, approached us with a request to organise workshops in our WOK.lab.

Designing and organising activities with young Ukrainians people as her final year project. Oksana sees group work and participatory art as tools that can be used to serve people. During spring and summer of this year (2023), she organised a series of meetings and workshops at various institutions in Warsaw. The final exhibition, entitled We are too young for this sh*t, took place at the end of July at WOK.

Anna Galas-Kosil: Tell us about the process of forming a group using the example of the group you worked with. How did you find the people who took part in the workshop?

Oksana Kolisnyk: It was very difficult, I started back in October. I decided to work with a group of young people from Ukraine. I was directly inspired by the story of my friend’s sister, who is 16 years old and has many friends in Kyiv and had never experienced any problems making friends before. When we spoke, she said that although she had lived in Warsaw for a year, she had not met anyone here during that time. She was studying remotely at a Ukrainian school and had no opportunity to make friends with her Polish peers. After speaking to her, I realised that there must be a lot more people in the same situation.

We rarely consider this age group when we think or talk about migration and refugees. We usually think of mothers with children, but the term children includes both five-year-olds and young adults. When I started analysing the cultural opportunities available to Ukrainians in Warsaw, I found that the most common workshops and activities were for mothers with children, and the women were happy to take part. Teenagers, on the other hand, have very little to choose from. Yet, when my friends organised events, no one came. It seems to me that this is a group that is hard to reach and hard to invite. It takes more commitment. I wanted to bring together people who did not know one another, and for it to be a self-help group where we could  get to know Warsaw and each other together.

I have lived in Warsaw for a long time. I know where the cool places are, where to go, where and when there is free entry. I planned our outings or  film screenings, but I found it difficult to reach inactive people. I tried to find them on Facebook and wrote posts in various groups, hoping that even if they weren’t there, their mothers would be and they could pass the information on to them. But it did not work. I planned the first meeting, a tour of the Museum of Modern Art for a Sunday when there was a guided tour in Ukrainian. I was joined by three three friends: my friend’s sister, whom I mentioned earlier, her boyfriend and another friend. She met him through a chat room called Dayvinchik [Дайвінчік], where Ukrainian teenagers meet. It is similar to Tinder; this is how they look for friends.

Unfortunately, I was unable to organise any other meetings after that, and I realised that it was going to be a long process.

In the meantime, I spoke to the Grupa Wolne collective, which organises workshops at Baza that are attended by many people. One of the organisers told me that the promotion itself (putting up posters and uploading content to TikTok) took two or three months. I didn’t have that much time, so I had to change the idea of my project.

I enjoy talking to people one-on-one, so I decided that I wanted to reach out to individual people and develop a closer relationship with them. I felt that if we got to know each other and they told me their stories, there would be a better chance of working together.

I intended to talk about friendship and Warsaw. I chose the topic because of my own experience: when I was at school, university, or in a dormitory, relationships formed naturally. I didn’t have to go anywhere or look for anything, I didn’t use any apps. But when I moved to Warsaw, I felt that I had to put some effort into getting to know people that it did not happen so naturally anymore. It is the same with 15- or 16-year-olds from Ukraine, it was natural for them before, but now it is not.

A.G.-K.: The context has changed completely.

O.K.: Exactly. They have to deal with a different language and cope in a different cultural context, which is a barrier. I wanted to find out how they meet new people, if they have any methods of doing so, and how they feel about their friends being in Ukraine or other countries. I started building relationships with these people. I met a girl at an event and she gave me the contact details of her friends, who in turn introduced me to  their friends, and so a diverse group began to form. On the one hand, people who are not very active, like my friend’s sister, and on the other, people who are more involved, connected to Grupa Wolne.

In my conversations with them, I noticed that when they took part in something, it had a ready-made formula and the outcome was planned. I wanted to give them a say in what our event would be.

I said it would be an exhibition to give some of it a kind of framework. For young people from Ukraine, where participatory art is not popular, an exhibition was a familiar format. Above all, I wanted it to be an event where we could integrate very diverse activities. I found your institution and your space perfect for this. It is in the city centre, big, friendly, welcoming and you are open to different ideas. It is not a small gallery on the outskirts.

We started our meetings. Some of the meetings were about integration, others were about planning the event itself. I tried to make everyone feel involved in the process, but it was not always easy. We met least often in June because I did not want to force the meetings on the project members, who were finishing school, sitting exams and going on holiday. Three people were unable to come to our meeting. I think some people felt they were not involved enough, although I think everyone contributed something. Everyone contributed to the project to the best of their ability.

Afterwards they were very happy that so many people had come, they said so several times. It was also their job to make sure the turnout was good. We invited friends and put up posters. There might not have been many people who none of us knew, but what mattered was that people came and had a good time, and the people in our group got a lot of positive feedback. That was when they realised they wanted more.

A.G.-K.: Tell us about the project participants. You said that some of them study remotely in Ukrainian schools. Some travel back and forth between Poland and Ukraine…

O.K.: Most of them graduated from high school this year and have already been admitted to Polish universities. They plan to stay here for the duration of their studies. Only one girl has decided to return to Ukraine at the end of the summer. She told me that she wanted to use what she had learned here in her hometown. The reasons for staying or returning can be very different. Some of the participants got to know and appreciate the Polish education system and want to continue their studies here, while others want to return, partly because of friends who stayed in Ukraine.

When we started our meetings, the people in the group were at different stages of their decision-making process and had different experiences. One girl attended a Polish school after arriving but found the experience challenging. Another told us that before she arrived, she was the president of the student council, and everyone knew her.She felt isolated in Warsaw, so she eventually gave up studying full-time and continued online.

This is a very common experience. It seems to me that it is not just about the language barrier (although that is important), but also about cultural differences. It is about the memes that make us laugh, the films we watch, our favourite TV shows. This makes it difficult to make new friends and it takes time.

A.G.-K.: How often did you meet? What was the dynamic of the development of this project?

O.K.: At first I wanted us to meet once a fortnight, but the group decided that once a week would be better. In May, we spent part of the meetings integrating, getting to know each other, and working on the exhibition idea. We also watched a film together.

June was more difficult, we met maybe twice. In July we met every week and we kept in touch via chat. I was a little afraid that I would be left alone with organising the event because I did not know how to delegate and I did not want to impose anything on anyone. However, it turned out that I had a lot of support from the people in our group.

I did not think to ask at the beginning if anyone would like to create the visual identity for the event. At some point one of the participants suggested that she would like to try, because she had done this kind of thing during courses she has taken and she had Illustrator and Photoshop software. We worked extremely well together, she designed great visuals and we had a great rapport. She also felt that she had done a great job and that her work was appreciated. This was one of the great successes of the project. There were many times when someone in the group offered to help me. I am very happy with this collaboration.

A.G.-K.: What was the final stage of the work like right before the exhibition?

O.K.: In the beginning, all the ideas were huge, so we had to make them more realistic so that they could be put into practice. We planned the exhibition as a kind of speed friending, we planned a game: people we did not know would get together in groups and do different tasks. Then we realised that we did not know what kind of audience the event would attract. Would they all arrive at the same time, gradually, or a few people at a time? We reformulated the idea several times and finally the whole exhibition was interactive.

During the assembly, I was more in control. Then Zofia Dworakowska from the Institute of Polish Culture joined in and helped us greatly. However, most of the work was done by the group, with my support and guidance.

A.G.-K.: What are the challenges involved in such activities?

O.K.: There have been difficult moments when, for example, someone’s idea had been modified or simplified in the working process. There have been various crises where someone has asked: ‘What happened to my idea? Why did you change it without telling me?’, even though we discussed it all. One of the biggest challenges was to manage the collaboration in such a way that no one felt offended. I told them: ‘If you have any ideas, it is best to write them down or present the subsequent stages of execution so that we can visualise them’.

Another challenge was to create a situation where everyone in the group had a voice, regardless of temperament or personality. Someone might be comfortable just throwing ideas around, and someone else might have an idea but not feel comfortable presenting it in front of everyone. So I wanted us to have one-on-ones. I tried to develop different methods of communication to meet the needs of different people. Communication crises were the most difficult for me. They required choosing the right arguments and negotiating.

A.G.-K.: Do you think the group is open to new people?

O.K.: I think there is such an openness, but the group members also have different temperaments. It is possible that if they like potential new members, they would accept them into the group. I think they might be more open to their friends or friends of their friends than to someone who is a stranger.

A.G.-K.: You have a migrant experience yourself. Did this help you in your project work?

O.K.: Besides me, there was another girl who had lived in Poland for a long time and is now a Polish citizen, but she also came from Ukraine. So we were both able to help with everyday things, give advice, talk to people about our university experience, etc. I have the impression that it was important for the people in our group that I, a Ukrainian living in Poland, was able to work for a cool organisation (some of our meetings were held in my office at the Association of Creative Initiatives “ę”) and establish contact with an organisation like yours. For them, I was the epitome of “making it” here, a link between Polish culture and those representing Ukrainian culture. Also, I look young, so they did not feel that there was a big age difference between us. We managed to make a friendly connection. I wanted there to be no hierarchy, but the shared experience also helped. I told them what it was like for me, that it was hard in my first and second year, about my first job. I shared my story with them.

A.G.-K.: Under one of the collages displayed in the exhibition, there was a quote from one of the people: ‘Here, as a person, I have opened up, found people with whom I feel comfortable. I have discovered a new side of myself and in general, a normal life has happened’. What do you think is missing in Warsaw to make young Ukrainians feel at home?

O.K.: This is a difficult question. Most of them are at a point where they need to find a flat, room or a place in a dormitory. What they do not have is a basic sense of security or the certainty that they would have a roof over their heads. Many have been accepted to university, and even if their mothers decide to return home, they intend to stay. One girl, aged 15, is looking for a place in a boarding school, so I am helping her. These are stressful situations that they did not have to deal with in Ukraine. They always had a home and never had to worry about where they were going to sleep or whether they could pay the rent. It seems to me that once they have found a place of their own where they can live for at least a year, these tensions will subside and they will be able to feel normal. A lot of people are looking for work. Their parents are helping them, but the situation in Ukraine is difficult, so they are waiting until they are 18 to start working legally. Once they have financial and housing stability, it will be a bit easier for them.

A.G.-K.: Feelings of loneliness, alienation, cultural differences, housing problems… It is a lot to take in for teenagers.

O.K.: Yes, it is very difficult, I cannot imagine how difficult it is. Most of the people in the group now live in one room with their mothers and siblings, if they have any, and have no space of their own. In most cases, their relationships with their mothers have deteriorated. One girl is here with her older sister. She was recently looking for a flat and was discriminated against because of her background. They have to deal with adult problems, they miss their friends, they would like to go back, but it is safer here.

A.G.-K.: Your exhibition was called We are too young for this sh*t. The works presented reflect on friendship, young people’s rights, and the experience of being a refugee. Where did the title come from?

O.K.: At first, I suggested something a little provocative like: ‘Friendship, Youth, Exile’, but nobody reacted. They probably thought: What on Earth was I blabbering about? Then one girl suggested a few ideas, and one of them was what we eventually chose as the final title. We put it to a vote and everyone voted in its favour. At the exhibition, there was no explicit talk about anger, but it is something that is on their minds, they told me they are tired of all these problems.

A.G.-K.: What did they remember most about your meetings?

O.K.: Yesterday they said they enjoyed watching a film together. It was a Ukrainian documentary called We will not fade away, which had previously been shown as part of the Millennium Docs Against Gravity festival. It was quite challenging and I was worried whether it was a good choice. It tells the story of Ukrainian teenagers living in villages near the eastern front, filmed in 2019. I was worried that they might get bored because these were conversations with teenagers and with their parents, about the future and their dreams. The ending is difficult; I was moved by it when I first saw it in the cinema. In the film it was 2019 and there was a front line, so these villages are probably gone now. At the end it said that two of the characters could not be contacted. It was powerful, some people in our group cried. Later we talked about the experience and I know it was important for them.

A.G.-K.: I would also like to ask you what advice you would give people who want to execute projects with young people. How do you invite young migrants to participate in collective projects?

O.K.: What I tried to do was to treat them as my friends, without any hierarchy. I often did not understand their slang, and once I even asked them to explain something to me. You also have to listen, because I have the impression that rarely does anyone ask them something and really want to hear their answer. It is worth giving them space. During the evaluation they said that they lacked clear rules for group work, a kind of collective contract. For example, if someone does not feel confident to speak in front of everyone, we can agree that they can write down what they want to say to the group. The idea is to give them a sense of agency. I think they don’t have much of that in their lives.

A.G.-K.: They would like to decide for themselves, but in the meantime life decides for them.

O.K.: Maybe they would like to go back but they cannot, or they want to stay here while their parents want to go back, etc. Everyone tries to tell them what to do. Sometimes they have no choice. That is why they also stick to their groups, because they feel safe among their own, safe, and equal.

A.G.-K.: About fifty people came to your event at the WOK, mostly young people. Many cultural institutions in Poland would like young people to visit them, but they do not always succeed.

O.K.: I think the key is to make these events really relevant to this age group. Why did so many young people come to our event? Because it was made by young people and it was about being young. If I had worked on the exhibition alone, I doubt they would have come.

It is definitely worth using TikTok. That is where they spend their time. Maybe you need to hire young people to make these videos because when they are shot by adults the effects are very different. I do not understand many of these trends, but teenagers are crazy about them. Maybe it would be a good idea to offer internships to young people, to involve them and let them be the ones who plan the communication. Today, if someone wants to work, they get a job selling ice cream or unofficially. It is not easy for them to earn money. I imagine that if an institution decided that this age group would organise a series of events for young people in their space during the holidays, then other young people would come to see it and start visiting the institution itself. They would see the place as their own, not as something invented by adult intellectuals… Perhaps this would motivate young people to take an active part in culture and make them feel welcome to stay.