PODCAST: In the midst of political tensions. A conversation with Paweł Łysak
Igor Stokfiszewski: How did you start your day today? You probably went to the Powszechny Theatre, did you not?
Paweł Łysak: Yes, of course! I have been at the theatre since morning and am there every day anyway. I usually go to the theatre hall to look at the stage, whether there is some dismantling, a set assembly or a rehearsal. If there is a rehearsal going on, I do not stay not to bother anyone. I glance at the monitors offstage to see what is going on there.
I.S.: Have you had a look at the stage today, too?
P.Ł.: Nothing was happening on the big stage, but on the small stage, there was a rehearsal for a new version of What’s Eating Gilbert Grape. In the first version, Daniel Krajewski suffered a leg injury and had to play in the premiere performance in a wheelchair. Now, everything is slowly returning to normal, so we are adjusting the play.
Olga Wysocka: How did you become a theatre director? You have been working as one for two decades now.
P.Ł.: In fact, I have been directing since 2000, but I had a three-year break, so it is twenty years. This year, I am also celebrating my thirtieth work anniversary. In the 1990s, when I graduated from drama school, I worked in various places. It all started when Maciej Prus offered me to stage my debut production, Roberto Zucco, on the small stage of the Dramatyczny Theatre, which was then located in the Mikołajska Hall. After that, I collaborated with different theatres, not very often but at least once or twice each season. The early 1990s, when the regime transformation took place, was quite a difficult time for the theatre. It did not know which role it was expected to play. Together with Paweł Wodziński, we realised we wanted to establish our own theatre space.
O.W.: How did your collaboration come about?
P.Ł.: We studied together at drama school. I had also worked with him before; he had designed the set and decorations for Wyspiański’s Judges, which I staged on the small stage of the Polski Theatre in Warsaw. We set up a theatre company, a group supposed to work on new dramas about social issues. I worked as Maciej Prus’s assistant at the Dramatyczny Theatre for four years, and Paweł also worked with us. It was an abstract situation when, on the one hand, we attended rehearsals of Krasiński’s Nie-Boska Komedia [Non-Divine Comedy] directed by Prus with a magnificent set complete of black wings, costumes, monumental birds, in short, pure Romantic theatre. On the other hand, just outside the theatre in Plac Defilad square, there was a huge makeshift bazaar with clothes and other objects sold directly from newspapers lining the pavement or field beds. Every day, we would pass this social setting, this world characterised by the transformation period, poverty and young capitalism, on our way to watch Romantic theatre. We started working on the so-called Brutalist new dramas, which incidentally, we learned about through our friends from the Barracke theatre, namely Thomas Ostermeier and Jens Hillje. We staged Shopping and Fucking by Mark Ravenhill and Blasted by Sarah Kane. We set up an association, acquired the rights to these plays and translated them ourselves. It was a time of sacrifice because we had to get the money for everything ourselves, and we were not earning much; we were both young fathers. From time to time, we invested in the theatre our own money. Once, we bought a rabbit fur coat for a play; another time, we got an old armchair from the janitor of a rubbish dump in exchange for a bottle of vodka.
I.S.: Did you experience any problems acquiring the rights to stage the plays in Poland?
P.Ł.: Let me tell you a little of what it looked like. We bought a computer and mobile phones and went online. We found the right agency, and Paweł told me, “Hey, write them an email and ask whether they have the rights”. So I did. Next, we had coffee and cigarettes. Usually, it takes six months to clear rights to a play, but this time we got an answer almost instantly. All we had to do was pay one thousand pounds. I called my wife and told her that I needed the two and a half thousand zloty we saved up. This is how it all began. Of course, the plays were found to be very controversial so we had to deal with numerous political protests.
O.W.: Where did the premieres take place?
P.Ł.: The first premiere was at the Rozmaitości Theatre at the invitation of Grzegorz Jarzyna, who gave us space for three rehearsals. Before that, we rehearsed at my house and Marysia Seweryn’s house. The second premiere was held in the theatre hall at the Norblin Factory. I remember that the temperature dropped to three degrees Celsius two days before the premiere, so no one in the auditorium took off their hats and coats. The actors were shivering from the cold.
O.W.: Here is a great story for a play: two young men starting their careers during a regime transformation. But let us return to the previous question. Why did you decide to become a manager? When was this?
P.Ł.: We became managers of our theatre or an association to be precise. We called it a theatre society, written in lowercase. Our mentor, Maciej Prus, told Professor Dobrochna Ratajczakowa, the dean of the Faculty of Theatre Studies in Poznań, about us, and she invited us to her classes to give a talk about our work. In return, we offered to perform a fragment of the play Shopping and Fucking. We were afraid of the opinion of such an eminent scholar, but we took the risk. The professor was delighted, even though the language of Shopping and Fucking is often vulgar and the play contains drastic scenes. She appreciated how expressively we staged the play. After some time, we got a call from the Mayor of Poznań, who said that Ratajczakowa recommended us as the heads of a local theatre. Paweł Wodziński and I wrote a proposal for how we intended to run the institution, and we submitted it to the Poznań authorities. This is how Paweł, the Managing Director, and I, the Deputy Director.
I.S.: Open competitions for such positions were not held yet. The mayors just decided these things. When you wrote this proposal, you also had to approach it from a management point of view, right?
P.L.: Yes, we did. I was afraid of that, but Paweł put me at ease. His father was the director of a big company, so Paweł had it in his genes. We had to look after the finances… All in all, we took care of everything and learned on the job.
I.S.: Did the team have any concerns when they discovered they would work under such young people?
P.Ł.: We were not so young then; we were in our thirties. But I have the impression that the problematic situation of the theatre forced the company to put their hopes in us.
I.S.: Indeed, we are talking about a time when there was much more openness to young people as directors. Earlier, you mentioned Grzegorz Jarzyna, who also became director of the Rozmaitości Theatre.
P.Ł.: Yes, and on the other hand, we felt that these positions were petrified. We even counted how many young people were appointed as heads of theatres at one time. There was Jacek Glab, Anna Augustynowicz… Not many.
I.S.: Have you ever met a theatre director whom you would consider a role model? You spoke about Maciej Prus.
P.Ł.: Being Maciej Prus’s assistant, who had worked as an assistant to Erwin Axer, who, in turn, was the assistant of Leon Schiller, I felt that I was preserving a tradition of sorts. At the time, I was a frequent guest at the theatre workshops; I was in constant contact with stagehands and extras. I handled all kinds of things at the theatre. I also experienced some hard times, for example, when Wiktor Kubiak [entrepreneur and music manager, producer of the musical Metro – ed. note] wanted to buy the theatre and when Kazimierz Dejmek, the director of a different theatre, offered help, and we managed to save the team. For me, working there was like a university education. After all these years, I feel the pressure of responsibility, I try to make the right decisions, although I still have some of the craziness of the early days in me.
O.W.: There was one more stop on your way from Poznań to Warsaw, namely the Hieronim Konieczka Polish Theatre in Bydgoszcz.
P.Ł.: I admit that in Poznań, where I headed a theatre for three and a half years, I had a powerful feeling that I was not competent enough for the job. On the other hand, when we left Poznań, at our request but also due to the intense criticism on the part of the League of Polish Families, I earned an MBA in Warsaw. These credentials proved helpful when I entered the competition for theatre director of the Bydgoszcz theatre as at that time not many artists could boast having such specialist education. Bydgoszcz became an important chapter in my life; I headed the local theatre for eight years and was quite successful, even internationally.
I.S.: Was it in Bydgoszcz that your idea for the theatre you would like to practise came to life? When I think of your work at the Powszechny Theatre in Warsaw, which we will get to in a moment, I think it was a continuation of the programme you first developed in Bydgoszcz.
P.Ł.: It all started in the theatre association, which was keen on voicing social issues. In Poznań, we were also looking for a new language to talk about the reality, here and now. When I finally arrived in Bydgoszcz, I knew what I wanted to accomplish. My concept earned me the Polityka Passport award a few years later. We wanted to experiment and take up essential topics: the modern consumer lifestyle and teenage suicides. We undertook many different activities in various artistic fields; we organised concerts, exhibitions, and public debates. We made friends in Bydgoszcz and invited all the city institutions to join our projects.
O.W.: Could you name three successful projects that had a far-reaching impact on the urban space of Bydgoszcz and the theatre community in Poland?
P.Ł.: I think the civic strategy adopted by the city, although only partially implemented, is a great success. My most outstanding achievement, however, was building a great team with whom I travelled to many places and established international collaborations. At the time, the Bydgoszcz theatre was one of the most essential theatrical landmarks on the map of Poland. We staged many plays, many of which were very a high standard. We collaborated with some directors like Wiktor Rubin, Maja Kleczewska, and Jan Klata. What was important was not our strategy as such, but the process of creating it. As Rebecca Solnit put it, it is not about getting somewhere; it is the journey that matters. A Municipal Cultural Centre was established in the city where many actors from our theatre were hired. I feel a specific responsibility for the concept we have created together. I often meet people who started perceiving reality through the perspective we fostered in our theatre. If someone asks me whether the theatre could significantly impact the world, after my experiences in Bydgoszcz, I would say it certainly can. I think this is a huge success.
O.W.: After the Bydgoszcz chapter, you moved to Warsaw and won another competition. The public sees you as a person who can change social reality.
P.Ł.: I was travelling back to Warsaw all this time, trying to establish myself there since it was my hometown. Eventually, I made it back. I was thrilled that the competition was for the director of the Powszechny Theatre, which is in the Praga district, on the right side of the Vistula river, not the ‘political’ left side [laughs], which has a high crime rate. I knew that this institution, as well as the urban space around it, needed to transform. Just as I did in Bydgoszcz, I wanted to establish great collaborations here too. The first item on my agenda was to set up the Prague Culture Platform, as part of which we liaised with roughly forty different institutions.
I.S.: We will talk about your programme in a moment, but now, I would like to talk more about the time you took over the management of the Powszechny Theatre. I feel that the theatre was perceived by the public from two different perspectives. The first was that for a long time, the theatre was undergoing a crisis caused by the inability to find the right management. Earlier attempts to appoint a director were unsuccessful.
P.Ł.: That is right. After Zygmunt Hübner, Andrzej Wajda took over the lead, but only for a year, then Maciej Wojtyszko managed it for two seasons, and next, the theatre was managed by an Artistic Council. For many years, there was a conflict at the theatre between two famous actresses, Krystyna Janda and Joanna Szczepkowska, who eventually founded their theatres. Next, Remigiusz Brzyk became the artistic director of Powszechny, but he had to leave the theatre because of a public storm. The following two subsequent directors were Jan Buchwald and Robert Gliński. All this time, Krzysztof Rudziński, who had been Zygmunt Hübner’s deputy, held the theatre together. I would say that Hübner was such a great director that the city was hard-pressed to find someone who would fill his shoes. Wajda was an outstanding figure as well, but in a different field, so he did not fit in very well. When I took over the theatre, we were fortunate that Hübner’s spirit had already faded a little, and he was no longer idolised to such an extent as before.
I.S.: The other perspective was the acting ensemble. Powszechny was known for its star-studded team, but many actors and actresses were middle-aged. You had to make some important decisions, and you let go quite a few acclaimed artists.
P.Ł.: I want to return to what I said in response to the previous question. Let us not forget that the ‘star-studded’ was created by Hübner. All the actors on the team starred in films and appeared on television. Over time, however, their significance changed. Today, people revere soap operas and popular TV show stars. When I was appointed the director, the former stars were close to retirement age, so I offered some of them the chance to cut down on their hours and retire. For instance, Franciszek Pieczka had not been cast in any of the current shows for two years. I proposed a model that worked well at the Stary Theatre, where retirees could still be ensemble members but would give up their FTEs to young actors. My idea was for the retired actors and actresses to get a fee for their roles but not a fixed monthly salary. Their salaries were so high that I could hire two young actors for the same amount of money one star would get. Marysia Robaszkiewicz accepted this proposal, but none of the others agreed and left the theatre appalled. In any case, Marysia was a perfect fit for the new ensemble, so I reinstated her as a full-time employee sometime later. The staff members who did not want to consent to the new terms quit.
O.W.: You won the competition and started implementing your programme. You had a tried and tested vision, while the actors and actresses you were supposed to manage did not quite match this dynamic.
P.Ł.: I would like to point out that the acting teams in smaller towns are more work-oriented. The actors and actresses who work there are ambitious; they want to be noticed to perform at festivals. However, the Powszechny Theatre team members already had a fulfilling career; maybe they were thinking about getting a part in a TV series or on the silver screen. It is a kind of stalemate stemming from the specifics of the theatre system in Poland. In Germany, when a new director is appointed, he brings in a new team, but Germany has an entirely different social security system. Sadly, in Poland, artists who work freelance, whether actors, directors or choreographers, are deprived of any employee rights and struggle to make ends meet if they are out of work. This is the reason why having a full-time job with a monthly salary is such an essential matter in Poland.
O.W.: How long did it take you to finally feel the energy of the new team?
P.Ł.: The first season was hard because everyone expected incredible results, and the change process was only beginning. By the middle of the second season, some ideas had already sprouted, and things started working better, for example, we were awarded the Golden Yorick [an award in a competition for the best Polish staging of William Shakespeare’s dramatic works and works inspired by his plays – ed. note]. Maja Kleczewska was the recipient of the Golden Lion award. Four seasons is the absolute minimum to implement a programme and see the results thoroughly. This is why it saddens me that directors are appointed for a three-year term only today. This is very little time to set the theatrical machine in motion.
I.S.: You became the director at the Powszechny Theatre in 2014, so your leadership has now lasted ten years. In 2015, we had a change of power in Poland, and your theatre became one of the key opposition strongholds. In the meantime, the vision of modern theatre changed as well. Overall, a lot has changed in the arts and the social sphere over the past few years.
P.Ł.: The Powszechny theatre had a hierarchical structure; it was a theatre of demiurges. After all, Tadeusz Łomnicki died on the stage of this theatre during a rehearsal. Just like Tadeusz Kantor in Kraków, he had a heart attack and died. Anyway, Kantor’s last performance dealt with the theme of death for a better world. It was a time when big ideas were cherished, not people. It was an example of left-wing, revolutionary way of thinking in the sense that people are willing to die for a good cause. Yet, it turned out that only a few could actually make sacrifices, and the rest profited from the sacrifices of the few. On the other hand, I strongly advocated democracy in and outside the theatre, especially when we had to deal with the PiS [right-wing party Law and Justice – ed. note] government. At the beginning of my career, I would break all the rules and regulations of the communist order. As a director, I had to soften a bit and find a work-life balance, which the staff also kindly reminded me of. However, I sometimes wonder if this pendulum has not swung too far towards political correctness. In my opinion, cancel culture has gone a little too far. On the one hand, we keep talking about principles and ideas; on the other, we subliminally want to conquer the world of the arts. I still remember what it was like to have to let the elderly staff go. We even coined the catchphrase: ‘nobody who is over 40 can be right’ [laughs], and we used to burn candles outside theatres. Today, I am on the other side of the fence and I watch the various mechanisms at play place exchange from a different perspective.
O.W.: How do you adapt the voice of the younger generation, and do you have the opportunity to hear it often?
P.Ł.: On one hand, I teach at the Theatre Academy, so I always meet young people. I tell them about what it is like to work in theatre; I try to make them aware of specific issues that Maciej Prus or Tadeusz Łomnicki taught me. On the other hand, I am not very authoritarian when it comes to directing. The fact that people feel good about their work empowers me. So I try to hear different voices, perhaps too many at times. To me, the essential thing is the collective creative process. I enjoy sharing ideas and like being inspired. However, under Polish law, a theatre director is ultimately responsible for everything. I have to make the decisions, make choices, and pick one good over another. People need to be guided. It sometimes happens that the majority is not correct, after all.
O.W.: You have benefited from working in an interesting political period in Polish history. Could you tell us about the role you played during this tumultuous time?
I.S.: Let me ask another question right away – how many lawsuits have been filed against the Powszechny Theatre in connection with the production of Oliver Frljic’s The Curse? For those you may not know, the production premiered in 2017.
P.Ł.: No trial has been instituted to date. We have only been the subject of investigations. Theatre’s social responsibility requires us to do something good for the community. Serving specific values can be difficult, so when we create a political theatre, we have to stand up for important causes which matter to part of the society. We support what we believe is important. By staging The Curse we put ourselves to the test.
I.S.: Do you remember what you thought of the play when you watched the dress rehearsal?
P.Ł.: I knew right then that things might get challenging after the premiere. I, personally, would not have created such a production, but when I decided to provide artists with a safe space, I asked them what they wanted to do there and told them what the consequences of staging The Curse might be. Looking back, I could not even imagine the extent of the scandal that ensued. It was apparent to everyone working on the show that we would not back out from making The Curse. We wanted to tell the truth, to talk about the problem of the sexual abuse of children in the Church. I think it was the first work presented in Poland that criticised the institution in such a way. I told the staff they had a choice as to whether they wanted to star in the production because although I am the theatre director, I cannot manage their conscience.
I.S.: Did anyone decide to leave the cast?
P.Ł.: One very young person. I was surprised by the team’s incredible loyalty. Every one of them faced immense pressure afterwards; some even received death threats. However, the team stayed fully professional. For me, as a director, the crucial issue is safety, and the ideological aspect comes second. Similar scandals broke out before in other theatres, as was the case with a staging of Chopin at the Rozmaitości Theatre or a play about Jerzy Popiełuszko.
I.S.: Let me just explain that performances of The Curse were filmed illegally, and excerpts were used for propaganda purposes during the protests of the right-wing extremists.
P.Ł.: I think it was the TVP public television station staff who recorded and disseminated the footage even though we did not consent to filming the performances… A poisonous substance was also found on the theatre premises, and several people were hospitalised as a result of coming into contact with it. On the nights we performed The Curse, we had to have the police guard the theatre building. We also hired a private security firm that had sanitised us from dangerous situations a few times.
I.S.: Did these events cement your theatre internally? Did you feel the art world supported you?
P.Ł.: When Janek Klata decided not to work with Frljic [Oliver Frljic, the director of The Curse – ed. note], I thought that the theatre milieu was changing. On the other hand, being the theatre’s director, I was protected because the opponents in the political war were PO [Civic Platform party – ed. note] and PiS. Even though I offended some PO with Shopping and Fucking I offended PO MPs; this time, they needed me in their battle. The Deputy Mayor of Warsaw, Michal Olszewski, said that he did not have censorship instruments at his disposal, so if anyone had any objections, they should report them to the prosecutor’s office. I was very grateful to him for saying this. The Culture Bureau, headed by Tomasz Thun-Janowski, also guaranteed us a sense of security and protection. The theatre community supported us, and the whole situation firmly cemented the team. If this performance had been unsuccessful, it would not have been easy to defend it. However, it hit the mark, united us, and empowered us. I also cannot forget the immense support of the audience. The audience was thrilled; we all felt the energy immediately – the ushers, the stagehands, and the whole team. The atmosphere around the theatre was euphoric at the time; we achieved great success.
I.S.: And how did you feel when it turned out that Krystian Lupa, with whom you collaborated, was openly criticised for his work model, which, after all, was not in line with the values endorsed by the Powszechny theatre?
P.Ł.: I have not heard any voices against Krystian Lupa’s collaboration with our theatre. There were maybe two people who questioned the idea. Someone suggested that Lupa’s theatre did not fit our profile. I had to respond to these challenges and implement some changes. For example, Capri lasted six hours, while our traditional rehearsals last four hours each. Then came the pandemic, and many of our tours had to be cancelled. The show was very expensive to present, and the cost was three times the collective cost of three productions of the regular type. However, it is essential to note that it was an investment that brought tangible financial benefits. Owing to this collaboration, the team went on a tour of Spain with the show. In Madrid, Capri was presented three times on the big stage. It is a well-known fact that Krystian is faithful to an older style of directing, which may produce tensions. As the theatre director, I tried to protect my team as much as possible and normalise Lupa’s work. Maybe it did not always work.
O.W.: What is your take on the process conducted with Marta Keil and Agata AdamiakWhat significance did it have for you?
P.Ł.: It was interrupted by the pandemic. It was a time when I had to make decisions quickly and on my own as if I were on a hunt. As a result, the process came to a standstill. I persuaded people from our team to set up the Workers’ Initiative. Later on, the theatre’s actors and actresses established a trade union.
O.W.: At what point did you decide to support the idea of creating trade unions? Was it connected to the case of Agata and Marta?
P.Ł.: Theatre is very diverse professionally, and the acting ensemble is a unique component of every theatre. The key question is what the internal structure should look like and what the agency of people working in theatre should be. As I said, The Curse united us. I felt that the trade unions would work well in our situation, and we also established an Arts Council. To be specific, in my opinion, two laws should come into force in Poland, namely the Law on the Rights of Professional Artists, which would secure social security, pensions, etc. and the so-called ‘industry agreement’, which is a document that sets out the rules of full-time employment in cultural institutions.
I.S.: What is your opinion about the fact that, in the Act on the Organisation and Operation of Cultural Activities, public institutions must collaborate and sometimes incorporate community cultural institutions? Should these provisions be amended?
P.Ł.: I find the Act faulty in many respects and should be amended. It was drafted with the theatre and artistic seasons in mind, and then, roughly halfway through the act, there is mention of the financial year and how it should be observed, and the former topics are abandoned. Diversity is the most critical thing in culture, and this should also apply to organisational units. These should be different and adapted to needs. Finally, social security must be guaranteed to artists since this profession is a victim of capitalist exploitation.
I.S.: Let us go back to the theatre. How many people visit the Powszechny Theatre every year?
P.Ł.: If we include our overall artistic activities and not just the performances in the calculations, I would say it is roughly 60,000 people annually. The audience attending ticketed events is under 40,000 people.
I.S.: Do you feel you are somehow teaching this audience to appreciate the Powszechny offering?
P.Ł.: I am tasked with completing a mission using public money. I have already said when we were talking about The Curse. The way I see it is that I offer the audience content I believe in. Since we know that many different theatres are operating in Warsaw, we wanted to define our own philosophy clearly.
O.W.: And how would you describe the audience of the Powszechny Theatre?
P.Ł.: We learn about it from the surveys we conduct. We also check who follows us on social media. We have noticed that we are a popular choice for the younger generation.
O.W.: You will continue to manage Powszechny Theatre for another two years. What goals have you set yourself for period?
P.Ł.: The goal has set itself because the last season is our anniversary season. I see this time to be a time for reaching understanding among the different social group and providing space for open dialogue. I am thinking not only of the conflict between our regular audience and the people who hate what we do but of the overall socio-political situation in the country.
O.W.: In reference to the Pope’s famous gesture of putting his hand on someone’s head, I wanted to use this metaphor to ask you who you intend to anoint as your successor.
P.Ł.: One such person is Łukasz Rutkowski, and another is Paweł Sztarbowski. The person I planned to anoint as the next director of the theatre was Łukasz Gajdzis, who, sadly, has passed. We also invited young directors Pamela Leończyk and Karolina Kowalczyk to collaborate with us.
O.W.: Finally, could you share some advice that would be useful for future directors of cultural institutions?
P.Ł.: First, they must realise how big a responsibility it is. They should ask themselves why the theatre exists. Secondly, they should ask themselves why they want to do this job in the first place. It is a public job, paid for by public money, so there are obligations to keep towards the team and, or even primarily, towards the audience. One of my directors, Cezary Karpiński from the Theatre in Lublin, gave me some advice once. He said that we should not make decisions too hastily. If we have to decide on something quickly, we should first try to hear the other side to understand the consequences of this choice, whatever it will be. This advice has often saved me from advice that was not always given in good faith.
O.W., I.S.: Thank you very much for your time.